With almost no context – and her poker-faced determination to not let the Zoom equivalent of the fall of Rome stand in her way – it’s very difficult to tell from the Handforth Parish Council video what exactly drives Jackie Weaver.

Is she unwittingly wading into a bloodbath? Perhaps she’s an aspiring politician hellbent on world domination, letting no local parishioner – not least council Chairman Tolver – stand in her way? Or is she, in fact, “Britney Spears”, as she suggested she be named during a Woman’s Hour interview, while talking about Tolver’s decision to refer to himself as “clerk”?

The answer, of course, is none of the above. Still, when I rang Jackie, I had no idea what to expect – certainly not a rousing call for young people to engage in local politics, overthrow those who dare to oppress them and be the change they want to see.

This interview has been edited for length.

VICE: So, first question, how did you get to where you are now?
Jackie Weaver: It all started when I was a mum of three small children and wanted to do something with my spare time. There was a vacancy on our local council, and I thought, ‘Well, what the heck?’ I became a councillor for a while, but I found that, actually, that wasn’t my interest – I was more interested in the mechanics. I don’t mean at the garage. That would be inappropriate. I was more interested in the rules and the regulations and how it works to make things better, so when there was a vacancy for a role similar to what I do now – which is providing advice, support and training for town parish councils – I jumped at the chance.

Given that it’s the mechanics of parish council operations that attracted you to the game, do you feel that, perhaps, your opponents didn’t realise what they’d got themselves into when they started quoting rules and regulations?
My experience is that at the point of which people start quoting rules and regulations, they’ve lost the argument. 

I’m aware there’s an ongoing investigation into the matter, so you may not be able to say too much, but is there much history between yourself and your Zoom call foes? 
No, I wouldn’t say so at all, but the history goes back just over nine years ago, when Handforth was created. ChALC [The Cheshire Association of Local Councils, the organisation for which Jackie is now the Chief Officer] was instrumental in getting the area of Handforth – which had been previously un-parished – to become a parish council. So, you know, I had a lot of positive experience of working with them for quite a long period of time.

My job is not usually so hands on, but in this instance the clerk had been suspended back in November of 2020. So when the three councillors – not the ones who were being difficult – wanted to hold a meeting, they needed somebody to facilitate it for them. I knew there were tensions at Handforth and I wouldn’t put somebody into that position until they knew what it was like, so I did it myself.

You could get the impression from the video that the more lively members had been trying to hold up proceedings in one way or another for a while. So I suppose that makes sense.
I find it very disingenuous the way that Tolver keeps going on about “Jackie, you are interfering with democracy”, when actually his actions are the biggest affront to democracy we’ve had in an awfully long time. And it wasn’t only what you saw on the video – as chairman, he’d refused to call a meeting, so two councillors exercised their right to hold a meeting and he comes in and tries to prevent it. But, you know, I was genuinely pleased to be able to have facilitated a meeting. And then the other three councillors who have tried to do everything by the book – and I’m a book girl – were just going to be, yet again, bulldozed over. I guess that gave me confidence to deal with the bullying behaviour. It was bullying of me, but it was vicariously bullying of the three other councillors too.

That feeds into my next question. Since the Handforth meeting, a sentiment that seems to be frequently expressed is that parish councils often function to keep the status quo. That more established members like to keep things the way they, so it’s difficult as a new or younger member to see things progress in your favour. Do you think that there’s a representational issue in parish councils?
I think that can be, but then again, I might tactfully challenge the people who say that. I’ll say to them: what are you doing about it? I mean, every four years, you have the absolute power to change – 100 percent – that council. There people like myself who are there to help you, so if you’re interested in becoming a councillor and don’t know how to go about it, get in touch with us. The support is there. Come and find us. Make a difference.

Has the meeting affected your perspective on parish councils at all?
Yes, but perhaps not in the way you think. I know some councillors behave badly. I wasn’t altogether surprised that there were difficulties with Handforth that evening, although I definitely hadn’t anticipated it being as rough it was. But I’m amazed at the interest that seems to have been generated by this. And frankly, if people are energised, for good or ill, to look more at parish councils and to get involved, then that can only be a positive thing.

On to the Paxman business: how do you feel about becoming a overnight viral star?
I feel that I wish I’d had my hair cut. A little nonplussed, I think, really? It kind of still just amazes me that anybody’s interested in what I’m doing. That people like yourself are prepared to spend time listening to me dribble on about, you know, my personal experiences.

Well I am, very much so. How do you feel about lifting the nation spirits?
They must have been very low. It’s like everything else in life, really – there’s two sides to it, aren’t there. We have three quasi-powerful men in a position of power absolutely bullying someone, and I don’t care who it is, that’s indefensible. On the other hand, there’s something just a little bit satisfying in watching somebody just totally lose it. I think that’s what people are reacting to. And, you know, when Brewerton [Aled’s iPad] screams at me about reading the standing orders, you should know people can hear you, shouldn’t you? I mean, it was childish tantrum behaviour.

Have you spoken to anyone else on the call about the call?
I spoke to the three councillors immediately afterwards, who were awfully sweet, saying, “Thank you very much for facilitating the meeting, and we’re awfully sorry for the behaviour of our colleagues.” Which was good. I think people recognise that they are genuinely trying to do their best for the community of Handforth in very difficult circumstances.

So you haven’t had any contact with Tolver – no olive branches or the like?
No, nor did he send me a Christmas card.

Well, that’s not very festive. Who would you want to play you in the film adaption of the Handforth Parish Council meeting?
Oh, umm… Helen Mirren.

Excellent choice. Any particular reason?
Because I like her hair.

“Standing orders are my bread and butter.”

Please settle this: do you have authority here, Jackie Weaver?
Yes.

Decisive.
I can go into more detail if you like? 

Absolutely.
Right. The chairman would not call a meeting. He also appointed himself as clerk, bizarrely. As clerk, he would not call a meeting. So, under the 1972 Act [The Local Council Act 1972 – the principle tenets of parish council lore], two councillors are empowered to call a meeting. When the meeting began, Tolver was the chairman of the council, and as a courtesy was invited to chair the meeting. But it was clear from what he said that his purpose was to disrupt and then to close the meeting. And he was removed from the meeting because of his disruption. It was not his meeting. He seemed to think that, because he was now the chairman, the meeting had become his. And the meeting wasn’t his – it was called by two councillors. Therefore, he was not able to add or subtract from the agenda, or to simply close the meeting. And because he persisted in that course of action – disruptive behaviour – he had been removed from meeting. Also, when we’re talking about him being removed from a meeting, I didn’t exactly put him in the bin. I put him into the waiting room, and messaged him and the others to say, you know, you are welcome to re-join the meeting if you will proceed with the agenda.

Did he respond to that?
He didn’t reply. I mean, that wasn’t what they were planning on doing. Clearly, the only purpose was to shut the meeting down.

JACKIE WEAVER, HAVE YOU READ THE STANDING ORDERS?
Standing orders are my bread and butter. Standing orders are another way of defining the governance of local councils. And although some of them have local peculiarities, they are basically a model document. And in the case of Handforth, their standing orders didn’t help them, because, again, their standing orders made no reference to a meeting called by two councillors. They clearly had a lack of understanding over what happens when two councillors call a meeting. And it doesn’t matter how much you shout at me to help me understand your point of view – it doesn’t alter the fact.

Okay. Finally, to wrap up, given your decisive, no nonsense approach to politics, would you consider a run for Prime Minister in twenty-twenty-fo—
No. Because if your approach is decisive, then politics is not for you. Politics is all about negotiating with everybody else. As I say, my preference is to work with the rule book rather than to work on initiative in that respect. So I’m afraid you’re going to have to manage without me as Prime Minister

That is a shame. An advisory Cummings-esque role perhaps
Oh yes, put me down for that.

Thanks very much for your time, Jackie. Before I let you go, is there anything else you’d like to share?
I would really, as a counterpoint to what people have seen, like to encourage young people and women – although they might be both – to come forward and change local councils. Work with us, bring us forward into the 21st century. Rather than look at the video and think, ‘That’s not something I want to be involved in,’ get involved and change it.